Growing Fruit Trees

[Ginkau]

Hello.........
I am just wondering if anyone has some advice in growing fruit trees from seed.
I am soon to be starting my own fruit tree garden YEAH!!!!!!!
Currently available commercially - the fruit trees are often grafted onto another fruit tree "stock" - I feel very uncomfortable about this process - like if another human body was planted onto mine and I no longer could function out of my own will - but had to take the will of the other......
I have had success growing avocadoes from seed, but this is all.
Has anyone grown apples, mandarins, oranges, pears and any of the beautiful tropical fruits from seed?

With thanks for any advice
In peace and love
Helen

[avatar]

Ginkau Wrote:Hello.........
I am just wondering if anyone has some advice in growing fruit trees from seed.
I am soon to be starting my own fruit tree garden YEAH!!!!!!!
Currently available commercially - the fruit trees are often grafted onto another fruit tree "stock" - I feel very uncomfortable about this process - like if another human body was planted onto mine and I no longer could function out of my own will - but had to take the will of the other......
I have had success growing avocadoes from seed, but this is all.
Has anyone grown apples, mandarins, oranges, pears and any of the beautiful tropical fruits from seed?

With thanks for any advice
In peace and love
Helen

To start with..

Planting a lemontree:

If you want to plant a citrus f.e. a lemontree out of a seed, look to find the best vertil lemons you can find and plant the whole ripe lemon into your garden or in a big pot with best soil for citrus-plants with iron in it.
These lemons are the best who allready begin to make sprouts in the propper lemons.

Important:
Do not squeeze the lemons you want to plant, because the rotting lemon-juice would kill the lemon-tree-embryo.

Grow also Kakis, nisperos, chirimoyas, figs, plums.ect.. They are easy to plant. After eating fruits trow the seeds into your garden or on the compost ..move them into the humit earth.
The little ones grow mainly better under the protection just in between the old trees or in a protected corner.
Do not worry so much about it because the trees will grow. ..may be not every time but that much, that you may need a big garden, to plant them all.

There are some fruits they need to be eaten with the seeds,to make them grow better or they need special treatment to do so.

This fruitarian phenomen is called ( Endochorie) and discribes the seeds that only grow ..or grow much better, after being pre-digested, so do apples pears, strawberries and others that you will find out..

Some apples never grow, when you plant them under another apple-tree, only e fiew do in save distance.

If the apple-seeds had been digested, they get ready to sprout easier.

I hope, that i could help you a bit further and good luck with tour fruit - tree plantation..and your fruit family.
If you want to learn more about it, don't hesitate to ask also grandmahs and grandpaaahs for help, because some of them still know how to plant in the tradicional way, without hurting anybody.

Let's talk later about less grafting and pruning, because i am working on a new video-project about fruit tree-health.
When the latest videos and pics are aviable i will upload them on our server and publish them here.

check also mulch and Horticulture and adapt it to your fruitarian needs:

http://fruchtesser.de/frugiforum/showthread.php?tid=104

you may aswell practice fruitarian permaculture...

In reply to your interest in permaculture, I am trying to invent a new alternative type of tropical permaculture that I would name fruitarian agroforestry which I invisage would include special fruit trees for raw edible protein (no need to heat or cook fruit protein) and fruit trees for a complete diet if they exist. If want to help me to try to start a fruitarian specific permaculture farm between Cairns and Tully in Queensland please see my own webpage and I have contact form and details on my webpage. http://fruitarian.org

All the best to you and your beloved ones ons@

[avatar]

Ginkau Wrote:Thanks for your help regarding growing fruit trees from seed - I now feel more confident to give it a go myself - to try some in pots while i am here and then i can move them into my own place.
I don't really like having plants in pots - but i will humbly apologize and assure them that they will get abundant space in the earth when i move at the end of the year - and hopefully there will be no hard feelings : ).
Good luck with your fruit project - i look forward to hearing/seeing more about it
In peace
ons@

Dear Helen,

here in Spain we have a lot of fruit-plant-killers, for that reason i want to make sure, that the little babies get not eaten up from animals or other plants..

The white flies & other insects also invador-plants are quite aggressive against all kind of fruit-life.

As i do not use problematic chemicals to killl insects and invadorplants in my garden i have to find natural ways to keep the balance in my garden f.e. with horticulture (mulch)



To pre-grow little trees in pots is not really necessary but sometimes ( in my case) it can help make it easier to grow up to a certain strength as long they are very little and fragile.

Of course the plants will not stay in pots..
After a short while they are big enough to be planted into the wild or their final place.
You can see it with your eyes, and later taste it what is best for our beloved plants, as they grow best and healthy.

Plant them with the moon.
& you will have fruits soon.

If you have enough space then you can leave the pots away.
In my case i am throwing many seeds into my garden every year and lots of little trees come out of the ground..



After a while i have to replant this little lives to make sure, that they will survive at their final destination.
Every year i give lot's of little trees to my friends, because the plants like to be at a save place not only to protect my garden being overpopulated and without provoce hard feelings.
good luck with your plant-growing, ons@

[fruitbat]

Dear Helen,
I find it strange too that just about all the commercial fruit we buy, is from grafted trees.
This seems like an unatural act to me too.
If there was no grafting, then I think in a lot of cases we would have to get used to very different fruit..
All commercial Avocados you buy in the shops are grafted. Avocados do not come true to the parent plant.
So all the Avocado babies have the potential to be different to the parent.
Other fruits do come true from seed.
With Mangoes, there are two kinds of seed; polyembryonic and monoembryonic. Soe varieties of Mango are polyembryonic whilst others are monoembryonic.
Polyembryonic seeds grow true to type from seed and so the Mango seed you plant will bear Mangoes like the one you planted. Monoembryonic seeds, grown commercially, however are always grafted.
If you want to plant fruit that comes true from seed, you could try finding a helpful nursery owner, who could give you some advice as to what seeds to plant.
I have lots of baby Avocados, all seedlings . I know that if they bear they will not be a defined variety, but I prefer this to grafting.
So you could just plant seeds and enjoy their fruit, even if it is not true to type.
Have a happy day,
love and peace,
from Anne XX.
P.S. great photos Ons.

[avatar]

fruitbat Wrote:Dear Helen,
I find it strange too that just about all the commercial fruit we buy, come from grafted trees.

If there was no grafting, then I think in a lot of cases we would have to get used to very different fruit..
All commercial Avocados you buy in the shops are grafted. Avocados do not come true to the parent plant.
So all the Avocado babies have the potential to be different to the parent.
Other fruits do come true from seed.
With Mangoes, there are two kinds of seed; polyembryonic and monoembryonic. Some varieties of Mango are polyembryonic whilst others are monoembryonic.
Polyembryonic seeds grow true to type from seed and so the Mango seed you plant will bear Mangoes like the one you planted. Monoembryonic seeds, grown commercially, however are always grafted.
If you want to plant fruit that comes true from seed, you could try finding a helpful nursery owner, who could give you some advice as to what seeds to plant.
I have lots of baby Avocados, all seedlings . I know that if they bear they will not be a defined variety, but I prefer this to grafting.
So you could just plant seeds and enjoy their fruit, even if it is not true to type.
Have a happy day,
love and peace,
from Anne XX.
P.S. great photos Ons.

Dear Anne, since i am living fruitarian my life changed completely and i am even thinking fruitarian.
When i went fruitarian and stopped to drink black tea or herbal teas.

I did this for a personal reasons, because i felt bad about my behaviour combined with desensibilisation effects..

Most of the tee - drinkers do not even know, that the huge tee-trees are chopped down to little suffering bushes to harvest them easier.

You are right about grafting, because we barely do not get wild fruits on our world anymore, which is a great petty on this planet.

fashion-tortures:

http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATAppro...Bonsai.htm

and it is used aswell to get rid of skin-problems:

http://www.who.int/buruli/photos/treatme...index.html

Nobody likes it, but humans make it happen..


Grafting apples..
http://growinggreener.blogspot.com/2008/...-post.html

mangos..
http://www.bijlmakers.com/fruits/mango.htm

Grafting in the dessert:

Manneola, a kind of Mandarin grafted is on Volkamerican. Manneola planted directly without grafting will be damaged by harmful insects which gather around roots. It's said, that grafting would be especially effective in the harsh conditions of the desert..

http://www.icajapan.org/virtualtoure/95EgyptE.html

without grafting:

Incredible "15 hectares" of these old vines are still planted without grafting them on American stocks, so we have to flood them every three years to struggle against phylloxera.
Indeed, to prevent the proliferation of this parasite that destroyed the French vineyards in 1870, there are only 2 solutions: grafting them on special stocks or flooding them during 40 days in winter. Today, only 2% of the vines in the world are still planted on their original stocks.

http://www.domaine-lansac.com/vigne_en.asp

Rose-Plants:

The growing in isolated beds increased the control in the root area and enabled grow many varieties of roses with their roots without grafting, with economic success. That was proven in controlled experiments in the volcanic institute and in the experiments farm of the Israeli ministry of agriculture and in many tests in Europe. The production of the cuttings takes about two months. And is done in the same conditions where the Graftlings are produced. What is being saved up is the production and the breeding of the mother-plants and the grafting work, which makes it half the price of the Graftlings. Thanks to their cheap price the cuttings penetrate the markets more and more and the breeders strive to breed varieties which are compatible to this method of growing.

http://www.taprojects.com/products.htm

No grafting reasons:

Open Genetics

The trees used on Valhalla's plantations are genetically pure. No grafting is performed. We have been selecting for a better tasting, better producing macadamia nut for 70 years.

According to UN reports we have lost 75% of the gene pool in our food crop in the last 100 years. We believe genetic diversity must be preserved.

Genetic Purity

All of the trees at Valhalla were grown straight from the seed, without grafts. This means that every single tree at Valhalla is a unique individual with unique genetics. The trees at Valhalla have been selected because they perform well in this particular place. Because they perform so well here, we have no need for chemical fertilizers or pesticides.

Grafting

Conventional fruit and nut plantations rely on grafting to ensure uniform size, appearance, and production. A graft is a cutting from a tree that is attached to a different root stock. The fruit from the graft is then genetically identical to the original tree! Grafts are also identical in the environment they require to survive and produce. Because grafts are used in many different areas, growers use chemicals extensively to eliminate all possible pests and disease which the grafted tree may be vulnerable to.

Pests and Disease

Genetically identical plantations of fruit or nut trees are obviously much more vulnerable to disease. Their uniformity ensures that any disease or pest which attacks one of them, will attack all of them.

In the natural world, genetic variety protects forests from disease and pests. While some of the individual trees may be susceptible, some will be hardier and will survive to pass on their genetic toughness to future generations. When conventional growers rely solely on grafted trees, they are exposing themselves to a potential epidemic, and are thus are ever more reliant on chemicals to create a sterile environment in which to grow.

Selection

We select our trees by putting the seeds (or nuts) under stress as they grow into seedlings. The hyper-competitive environment our seedlings grow in make it easy to tell the strongest and highest producing from the weaker individuals. The stronger individuals are then used for nut production. By doing this, we can quickly determine which trees grow best in a new environment. This technique will be used to find new individuals that will survive in any new regions the Valhalla project expands to.

Genetic Diversity
A further problem with grafting is that it has severely reduced the gene pool for many of our common fruits. For example, Red Delicious apples are all genetically identical. Golden Delicious, a different variety, are also all genetically identical. While the genetics of these trees remain the same, the pests and diseases that attack them are constantly evolving. Thus, more and more chemicals are required to allow these varieties to grow.

Genetic uniformity could potentially lead to the loss of entire species of common fruits and vegetables. Bananas, for example, have such a high level of genetic uniformity that some fear a present disease could eliminate this crop from the planet.

source:
http://www.exvalhalla.net/opengenetics.htm


During the short phases i had been living at our farm-house in Germany in the years 1965-1969 there was not one tree pruned in our garden.

Many years i did not even know about it, because it was normal that we had huge fruit trees without pruning, but i had been told, that we would not be able to eat fruit without grafting, which is also wrong to say.
The big fruit-trees are called "Hochstammkultur" in German which means something like high trunk culture..and the intention is to support the the big tree philosophy without borders..

INTERREG II Grenzüberschreitende Förderung von Hochstamm-Obstkulturen

http://www.nabu-saar.de/sot/sot1/sot1v11...t1v11.html

Der Streuobstbau

Dr. Franz Rueß d. Staatl. Lehr- und Versuchsanstalt für Wein- und Obstbau erlaeutert:

Viele Landschaften in Baden-Württemberg sowie im ganzen süddeutschen Raum werden durch den Hochstammobstbau geprägt. Im Gegensatz zu den im Erwerbsobstbau verwendeten schwachwuchs- induzierenden Unterlagen mit Baumhöhen von 2,5 Metern werden im Hochstammanbau Sämlinge oder starkwachsende Unterlagen verwendet. Dadurch können Hochstämme durchaus Baumhöhen von bis zu 20 Meter erreichen. Diese Form der traditionellen Landbewirtschaftung ermöglichte eine Doppelnutzung der Fläche. Unter den Bäumen wurde Ackerbau oder Viehhaltung betrieben. Zusätzlich konnte im Herbst der Baumertrag als Frischobst oder zur Herstellung von Trockenfrüchten, Saft oder Most genutzt werden. Die Mechanisierung der Landwirtschaft, die mindere Qualität der unter den Bäumen genutzten Kulturen sowie arbeitswirtschaftliche Gründe des modernen Obstanbaus machten den Hochstammobstbau unwirtschaftlich.

Absterbender Birnenhochstammbaum
(pear standard tree)



Foto: F. Rueß

Rodung wurde gefördert

Die Umstellung auf rentablere Bewirtschaftungsformen wurde teilweise staatlich gefördert. Aufgrund des Generalobstbauplanes 1957 mit finanzieller Unterstützung durch Landesmittel und EU-Zuschüsse wurden allein bis 1974 rund 15.700 Hektar Streuobstwiesen im Land gerodet. Weitere Streuobstbestände, wie z. B. die Streuobstgürtel um Gemeinden und Städte, fielen in erheblichem Umfang neuen Wohn- und Gewerbegebieten, dem Straßenbau oder Flurbereinigungen zum Opfer. Während 1965 noch fast 18 Millionen Streuobstbäume gezählt wurden, waren es 1990 nur noch knapp 11,4 Millionen. Die Umstrukturierung der Obstlandschaften Baden-Württembergs erfolgte dabei sehr unterschiedlich. Während der Rückgang des Streuobstanbaus im traditionellen Marktobstanbaugebiet Bodensee fast 54 % beträgt, wurde der Bestand im Obstbaugebiet Neckar-Taubertal lediglich um 27 % reduziert. Im Anbaugebiet Neckar-Tauber befindet sich auch heute noch mit fast 5,3 Millionen Bäumen fast die Hälfte der gesamten Streuobstbestände des Landes. Obwohl dieses Anbaugebiet klimatisch ähnlich begünstigt ist wie die Rheinebene und der Bodensee, haben bessere Einkunftsmöglichkeiten außerhalb der Landwirtschaft eine Umstellung der Flächenbewirtschaftung verhindert und damit für den Fortbestand der Streuobstlandschaft gesorgt. Viele Nebenerwerbslandwirte und "Stücklesbesitzer" kümmern sich dort um den Erhalt ihrer Bestände. Immer öfter werden jedoch Flächen aufgegeben und fallen der natürlichen Sukzession anheim, weil die alte Wirtschaftergeneration weggestorben ist und die Erben weder das Wissen noch die Muße einer weiteren Bewirtschaftung haben.

Schwankende Erträge

Die extensive Pflege der Streuobstbestände sorgt dementsprechend für ein von Jahr zu Jahr sehr unterschiedliches Ertragsaufkommen aus dem Streuobstbau. Aufgrund von Spätfrösten wechseln sich Massenerträge und Jahre mit geringem Ertrag ab. Beispielsweise betrug der Apfelertrag aus dem Streuobst- und Gartenobstanbau in ganz Baden-Württemberg im Jahre 1999 cirka 600.000 Tonnen, im Jahr 2000 dagegen 1,3 Millionen Tonnen. Für 2001 wiederum wird die Ernte lediglich auf 450.000 Tonnen geschätzt.

Mostobstlese lohnt häufig nicht

Diese enorm schwankenden Produktionsmengen führen zu stark schwankenden Mostobstpreisen, so dass sich eine Obstlese häufig gar nicht lohnt. Streuobstinitiativen mit garantierten Auszahlungspreisen versuchen, diesem negativen Trend entgegenzuwirken. Während sich das im Handel befindliche Apfelsortiment auf etwa sieben Hauptsorten beschränkt, befinden sich im Streuobstbau etwa 50 Sorten mit überregionaler Bedeutung und Hunderte von regionaler oder lokaler Bedeutung. Oft sind diese Bestände aufgrund von Überalterung vom Aussterben bedroht. Sortenerhaltungsgärten des Landes in Bavendorf, Hohenheim und Weinsberg, aber auch viele private Initiativen von Obst- und Gartenbauvereinen versuchen, dieses kulturelle Erbe zu erhalten.

Dr. Franz Rueß
Staatl. Lehr- und Versuchsanstalt für Wein- und Obstbau
Weinsberg

http://www.xfaweb.baden-wuerttemberg.de/...20011.html

To converve the knowledge about harmless fruit-cultivating methods is essential.

The times are over when farmers had been cutting only storm-damages or dead branches off.

Nowadays fruitplants are pruned to make them compatible to harvesting machines.

---

We had a big variety of wild fruits and our traditional trees had been more healthy then pruned ones but also we had grafted trees, when we bought a existing place with already old trees on it.

You had been showing a big conflict, and how to act right is the question:

Old graft-free varieties are kicked off the planet by mankind.


Greenpeace-video-Indonesia

[avatar]

Talking about grafting and pruning we know what we try not to do and now i take the oportunity to talk about my first experiences about a personal fruit-jungle experiment:

Since 1987 i am collecting experiences about a semi-wild fruit-treeplantations.

Method:

All fruitrests, pips and seeds are trown on the actual planting-surface, where i am usually living and eating.
With that method all new fruit-trees get speaded and the possiblility to grow how they want, without being grafted or pruned.
Meanwhile it's interesting to see a little fruit-forest growing since the startout.

My active part is reduced in spitting the seeds out, where i am eating and they grow, where the fallen seeds find the most attractive place to grow.
Some grow others don't - neigther it matters.
What grows is invited to be part of the baby jungle.

Nature seems chaotic but the chaos has it's rules and i have not to be worried anymore being able to eat the first ripe fruits of them.

During the experiment i noticed that much more trees grow in my garden than before and if somebody needs to make a similar try, there should be a huge planting-surface to spread the fruit-trees as wide as possible with all kind of local fruit-varieties.

Also i have to tell, that in a short while i had been reaching my planting capacity, because there was no place left to grow more fruit-trees.

Specially during the last 10 years had been filling my garden with new trees and now i am waiting for them not to fight against eachother.


Where fruitarians live, eat and stay, a fruit-jungle appears automaticly.




Without harvesting machine we do not harm the trees.

The two sides of the medal with pruning..

..Carob-trees in Spain are invaded by insects.

If there is nobody cutting the ill branches off, these trees will die unnecessarily tough..



Once trees had been pruned (mostly wrong done) they grow mad and ill..even 75 years later..



Our controversal debate indicates my personal opinion:

By now i think that it is necessary to take responsibility about his own deeds or ignorance without panic.

I am taking care about this trees and..



..i am eating the fruits of them.




Caring about plants is a big responsibility.
Humans had been showing, that they are not capable to make it better then the untouchable evolutional creator, neigther i do.

We made a lot of mess on earth.

Now we have to deal with it. ..bring back paradise.

What do you think about it?

[Ginkau]

AAAh YES - to bring back paradise.
I read a book a few years ago about a lady who had transformed her suburban backyard into a self sufficient paradise. Her personal experience with fruit trees was that she planted them approximately 2 metres apart. (most of her trees were from seed she had saved herself) In planting them close and never pruning them they formed a canopy over her garden. She harvested the fruit growing on the lower branches and the birds ate from the top of the trees that she couldn't reach anyway. I like this idea - sharing with the locals : ).
Though I will also be planting the front of my house with local indigenous plants so that the birds can have the food that is natural for them too.
Thanks Anne for the advice about different types of seed - all the fruit we eat is organic or bio-dynamically grown - but there is still no guarantee about the sort of seed that it is - but I feel that is a good starting point. I am excited by the prospect of having trees that fruit each a bit differently - each a unique friend.
I also met a guy at a picnic the other day who has successfully grown a pineapple plant here in Perth (not the usual climate here) - so am going to give that a go too. Apparently plenty of sun and compost.
In peace
Helen

[avatar]

Dear Helen, some days ago i had been replanting about 16 little trees from my garden, as they had been standing too close. My friends had been happy as they have more space now. I love to plant trees, as Wolfgang does.